The Watchmans Study

Too many discussions, too many debates. Scriptures don’t have any implications or any input? It’s all Gods discretion, so we should leave it there, pray for the family and don’t get caught up in a sensless debate or conversation.

Wisdom calls out publicly from prominent locations—the heights, crossroads, and gates—addressing all people directly (Prov 8:1–36). Her appeal targets both the naive and the foolish, inviting them to gain prudence and discernment (Prov 8:1–36). She promises to speak truth and righteousness, with nothing twisted or crooked in her words (Prov 8:1–36).

Wisdom positions herself as more valuable than precious metals and jewels (Prov 8:1–36), and she dwells alongside prudence, knowledge, and discretion (Prov 8:1–36). Through wisdom, kings reign and rulers establish justice (Prov 8:1–36). Those who seek wisdom diligently find her, gaining riches, honor, righteousness, and an inheritance (Prov 8:1–36).

The passage then shifts to wisdom’s cosmic significance. Wisdom was possessed by the Lord at the beginning of creation, established ages ago before the earth existed (Prov 8:1–36). Wisdom has been with God continuously since the beginning of creation[1], and this means wisdom functions as an intrinsic dimension of reality itself[1]. Becoming wise involves attunement to the nature of reality[1], and right living becomes the pathway to understanding[1].

Theologically, Proverbs 8:22–31 generated substantial debate in the early fourth century, influencing the first ecumenical council[2]. Christ functions as the hidden reality underlying and fulfilling the cosmic imagery of Wisdom in Proverbs 8[3]. Wisdom’s self-portrait connects the primordial with the present, the transcendent with the immanent, revealing that freedom, joy, and fulfillment are found in intimate relationship with God within the boundaries of creation[3].

[1] Zoltán Schwáb, Proverbs: Wisdom Calls: An Introduction and Study Guide, ed. Adrian Curtis, T&T Clark Study Guides to the Old Testament (London; New York; Oxford; New Delhi; Sydney: T&T Clark, 2023), 97–98.
[2] Benjamin T. Quinn, Walking in God’s Wisdom: The Book of Proverbs, ed. Craig G. Bartholomew and David J. H. Beldman, Transformative Word (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2021), 43.
[3] Christopher B. Ansberry, Reading Wisdom and Psalms as Christian Scripture: A Literary, Canonical, and Theological Introduction, Reading Christian Scripture (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic: A Division of Baker Publishing Group, 2024), 40–41.

> looking for in proverbs the passage about loving death is hating God

The passage you’re looking for is Proverbs 8:36, where wisdom declares that those who hate her “love death.” The verse frames rejection of wisdom as self-harm—those who fail to embrace wisdom damage themselves. The connection between hating wisdom and loving death suggests that turning away from God’s wisdom is fundamentally a choice against life itself. In the context of Proverbs 8, where wisdom represents God’s ordering of reality and the pathway to flourishing, rejecting wisdom means rejecting the conditions for genuine living. Death here functions not merely as physical mortality but as spiritual alienation and the forfeiture of the abundant life that wisdom offers.

> “to love death” can that be considered suicide?

“To love death” in Proverbs 8:36 functions as a metaphorical description of self-destructive choices rather than a literal reference to suicide. Rejecting wisdom is portrayed as self-destructive[1], but the passage addresses a broader pattern of decision-making that leads away from life.

The search results frame this concept within wisdom literature’s fundamental dichotomy. Those who find wisdom obtain life and favor from God, while those who hate wisdom “love death”[2]—yet this opposition operates on multiple levels. Lady Folly’s promises are false and take the listener down the road to death[2], describing a trajectory of consequences rather than a single act. Finding wisdom yields life as a reward, probably indicating a fullness of life according to God’s ways[1].

One search result interprets “loving death” more expansively, applying it to cultural and social choices. Those who advocate for taking unborn life and medically assisted suicide are described as loving death, embracing a culture of death that exalts itself against what God has declared good[3]. This reading treats the phrase as encompassing systemic rejection of God’s values regarding life itself.

Rather than suicide specifically, the phrase captures a posture of opposition to God’s wisdom—choosing paths that diminish flourishing, whether through individual moral failures or collective devaluation of life. The language is deliberately stark: to hate wisdom is to align oneself with death’s domain, not necessarily to seek physical death, but to forfeit the abundant, ordered, meaningful existence that wisdom provides.

[1] John D. Barry et al., Faithlife Study Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012, 2016). [See here, here.]
[2] Mitchell L. Chase, Walking the Way of the Wise: A Biblical Theology of Wisdom, Essential Studies in Biblical Theology (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic: An Imprint of InterVarsity Press, 2025), 85–86.
[3] Roger Patterson, A Minute of Vision for Men: 365 Motivational Moments to Kick-Start Your Day (Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale Momentum, 2016). [See here, here.]

> so where does suicide fit in to the scriptures?

Scripture doesn’t explicitly condemn suicide through direct commandment, yet the biblical witness addresses it through multiple theological lenses.

The Bible records several instances of suicide—Samson, Saul, Judas, and others—yet notably presents these accounts without moral judgment[1]. While these cases appear throughout Scripture, there is no single verse that directly prohibits taking one’s own life[2]. Instead, Christian theology developed its stance on suicide gradually through interpretation rather than explicit biblical prohibition.

Augustine was the first to explicitly condemn suicide in Christian tradition, interpreting it as a violation of the commandment against murder[1]. Augustine responded to a cultural context where religious suicide was sometimes viewed as a form of martyrdom, and his position eventually prevailed, leading councils beginning around 553 CE to classify suicide as a demonic act and a crime[1]. This theological stance hardened over centuries into severe ecclesiastical and legal penalties.

From a contemporary biblical perspective, the foundation for opposing suicide rests on broader theological principles rather than specific prohibitions. Humans bear God’s image and possess inherent, unchangeable value; God alone holds authority over life’s beginning and end as Creator and Sustainer[2]. The biblical commands against murder implicitly encompass self-harm[2]. However, contemporary Christian counseling recognizes that suicide, while serious sin, does not forfeit salvation—one act of rebellion does not forfeit eternal security by God’s grace[2].

The passages expressing suicidal despair—Job’s longing for death rather than suffering, Jonah’s request that God take his life, and Elijah’s plea for death in exhaustion (Job 7:15–16)—reveal that Scripture acknowledges the depth of human anguish without condemning those who voice such thoughts.

[1] Sabrina Müller and Jörg Frey, Deadly Real: Mourning and Accompaniment after Suicide (New York, NY: Cascade Books, 2021). [See here, here, here.]
[2] Kristin L. Kellen, Counseling Teens: Biblical Wisdom for Today’s Young People (Brentwood, TN: B&H Academic, 2026), 253–254.

> those who continue to face struggles or tribulations will at times voice dispair but knowing within themselves it works for a greater good. I’ve committed this many times. but understanding makes one rethink their situation and think more clearly

Your insight captures something central to Christian faith: suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope (Rom 5:3–5). The clarity that emerges from understanding this trajectory—that trials serve a redemptive purpose—fundamentally shifts how we process despair.

Christians struggle with suffering, too, but we know that suffering is part of God’s saving plan for us, which makes all the difference.[1] This knowledge transforms the internal experience. Rather than suffering as meaningless chaos, it becomes a tether that ties us more closely to Christ, a testimony affording us the opportunity to display God’s grace in time of trial, and a teacher instructing us in humility and righteousness[1].

What you’ve experienced—voicing despair while simultaneously recognizing its greater purpose—reflects the biblical pattern. Suffering is redemptive for Christians, not because suffering (or dying) is good in itself, but because it unites us more deeply with the redemptive suffering of Christ and helps to make Christ manifest to the whole world.[2] The act of rethinking your situation and gaining clarity isn’t a denial of the pain; it’s the emergence of perspective that frames light momentary affliction as preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison (2 Cor 4:16–18).

The tribulations of the people of Christ are instrumental in promoting their moral transformation into the likeness of Christ[3], and this transformation often happens precisely when we move from despair toward understanding. Your repeated commitment to this practice—naming the struggle while recognizing its purpose—is itself spiritual discipline, a form of faith being refined.

[1] Philip Graham Ryken, The Message of Salvation: By God’s Grace, for God’s Glory, ed. Derek Tidball, The Bible Speaks Today: Bible Themes Series (Nottingham, England: Inter-Varsity Press, 2001), 259.
[2] Matthew Levering, Dying and the Virtues (Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2018), 102.
[3] B. A. Milne, “Tribulation,” in New Bible Dictionary, ed. D. R. W. Wood et al. (Leicester, England; Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1996), 1208.

> so as followers of Jesus, we should not get involved in the debate whether suicide is a sin or keeps us from our gained salvation?

Your instinct aligns with what the search results emphasize: the church’s responsibility is not to debate whether suicide is right or wrong or to dispute the eternal state of those who’ve taken their own lives, but rather to bring healing, hope, and restoration to the broken and suffering[1].

The theological debate itself—whether suicide forfeits salvation—has produced competing Christian perspectives. Some traditions label suicide as a heinous sin violating God’s command against murder, while others view it as an unpardonable sin because the sinner has no opportunity to repent[1]. However, Jesus never declared that taking one’s own life is unforgivable[1]. God’s redemption is ongoing, continuous, and powerful, which means suicide may be sin but remains within the scope of atonement[1].

More importantly, Scripture teaches that from the moment we truly believe in Christ, we are guaranteed eternal life, and nothing can separate a Christian from God’s love[2]. God’s covenant is one of steadfast love toward his children, whom he knows to be sinners, rather than a transactional demand for repentance of every misdeed[3].

Rather than getting entangled in theological abstractions, followers of Jesus should focus on what the search results identify as the real calling: understanding the role of hope and suffering in people’s lives, teaching others to live in hope before they encounter depression, and helping them understand that suffering doesn’t mean the loss of hope[1]. Your own practice—voicing despair while recognizing redemptive purpose—models this pastoral witness far more effectively than doctrinal debate.

[1] Steven Gerali, What Do I Do When Teenagers Are Depressed and Contemplate Suicide? (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2010). [See here, here, here, here, here.]
[2] Got Questions Ministries, Got Questions? Bible Questions Answered (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2002–2013). [See here, here.]
[3] Karen Mason, Preventing Suicide: A Handbook for Pastors, Chaplains and Pastoral Counselors (Downers Grove, IL: IVP, 2014). [See here.]

> Can you provide 10 scriptures on this topic?

Here are 10 scriptures addressing suffering, hope, and God’s presence during despair:

• Romans 5:3–5 — Suffering produces endurance, which produces character, which produces hope, and this hope doesn’t disappoint because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit.
• 2 Corinthians 4:16–18 — Light momentary affliction prepares for us an eternal weight of glory beyond comparison, as we focus on the unseen rather than the seen.
• Romans 8:18 — The sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed.
• 1 Peter 1:6–7 — Various trials test the genuineness of faith, which is more precious than gold, resulting in praise, glory, and honor at Christ’s revelation.
• Psalm 34:18 — The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves those crushed in spirit.
• John 16:33 — In Christ we have peace; though tribulation comes in the world, we should take heart because Christ has overcome the world.
• Lamentations 3:21–23 — The Lord’s steadfast love never ceases; his mercies are new every morning, and his faithfulness is great.
• Romans 8:38–39 — Nothing—neither death nor life, nor any created thing—can separate us from God’s love in Christ Jesus.
• Matthew 11:28–30 — Jesus invites all who labor and are heavy laden to come to him for rest, offering a gentle yoke and light burden.
• Psalm 139:13–14 — God formed us in the womb and we are fearfully and wonderfully made.